Help-some weeks ago my old boat broke its mooring and ran aground-turned out it was in swinging circle of a small shallow draft boat.Other boat swung and caught under stern of my boat causing damage to third parties two outboards(scratched engine covers) and some chips to its side deck gel coat-its an elderly 19 footer with a day cabin.Just had third party coming after me for £1000 worth of damage-two new engine covers and £500 to repair the gel coat!

Anyone know what liabilty is in such a case of accidental damage-neither of us are insured?

Phil

It sounds as if, in the absence of insurance companies to do it on your behalf, you need to do some negotiation between yourselves. I suppose he could reasionably argue that you are liable for the damage, as it was your boat that went walkies. He is the innocent party, as it was your mooring that failed. But how reasonable is his bill? Could you get alternative quotes (which is what an insurer would do)? How well do you know each other? Could you offer to do the gel coat repairs yourself? I know boat insurance can seem expensive, but in a case like this it could have been a bargain!

I'm surprised that you have a mooring, actually both of you moorings wthout Insurance. Most Harbours / Mooring areas I know of and that is not only UK require at least 3rd Party Cover for each boat visiting / mooring / staying there.

Anyway in this case - it really is a case of sitting down and discussing it out. Your account has me wondering if the other boat caught under your stern BEFORE yours broke loose (a)- you say small swinging circle, OR after you ran aground other boat swung under your stern (b).

If case (a) then it's debatable if you are totally at fault, as swinging circles are too close and his boat locking with your stern may have exaggerated problem, causing breaking of mooring. If case (b) then of course your mooring is then in question as unsuited to purpose.

My suggestion ? Joint approach to Gel-coat repairer, joint approach to outboard dealer as to recon covers / new decals etc.

Second suggestion - Third Party Liability Insurance is cheap enough .... Basic Boat Liability on the Web did an excellent job for me when I needed quick cheap cover while boat was being sorted. There's no need for Full Comp. in many cases.

Thanks for advice to date-I spoke to RYA legal officer who was very helpful very much along lines of Cathy.

As for insurance moorings are freshwater and are free-problem has been that when I put my mooring down for old boat there were only three boats in what is quite a restricted space-and we were all very aware of swinging circles etc.In past 5 years something like about 20 more boats have squezzed themselves in.

Ownership of the floor of Loch Ness is open to question so moorings are free with no one wanting responsibility.

Phil

The surely if you were set-up BEFORE other - then you take precedent ? If he lays mooring too close to you - then he surely has to accept consequences ?

I think that sit-down and decent chat is only way to go.

Problem was that joint owners of other boat come from a completely opposite world view to myself.

Had the damage occured to either of my boats being totally practical in my outlook I would have been quite happy if someone had bought me some filler paste and paint plus perhaps  £100 for my time long before claiming on my insurance(for the Coaster 33)

To some extent as well I would have dismissed the damage as to be expected in such circumstances.

Clearly the owners of this boat didnt have a clue-why else would they add probably £2500 worth of outboards to a boat may be worth £1500?

Anyway I decided that despite the fact that I was being asked for about £1000 I decided to pay up.Had I had the boat fully insured over the past 10 years it would have cost me in annual surveys and premiums well over £4000 being an old wooden boat.Also it has focused my attention in that I have put it to oneside over past three years when I should have actually been trying to seriously sell it.

And I got great satisfaction on the phone this evening when I told one of the owners I was sending him a cheque.Unfortunately he was a rather rude and arrogant sort of person who seemed to be looking for trouble and his boat was clearly an extension of his male ego(or something else!).He was literally stuck for words when I told him I was paying upwheras normally he is totally full of himself!

As to why my boat broke its mooring to summarise in three years a 3/8 chain lost over 75% of its thickness at its lower end to galvanic/electrolytic corrosion between I believe the lead keel and the riser thru what is extremely acidic fresh water in Loch Ness.

Phil

How wonderful that the bottom of Loch Ness hasn't got an owner, however you ought to think about how you can protect your interests in the long term, with the way this Government works, you'll have DEFRA (or whatever the Scottish version is) trying to claim it for the worms and eels or maybe the monster!

A loosely formed democratic co-operative that lays claim to it and is incorporated as a not for profit organisation would soon receive recognition for the County Council and could even attract funding from the EU, that way you wou would be in the driving seat and could protect yourselves from organisations trying to do things to you for your own good!

You might want to discuss this with the RYA's Legal people, they are very good at this sort of thing.

Probably does have an owner-local forshore appears to be responsibility of local community council;there is also an unusual issue in that when the Caledonian Canal was built in 1830s a weir was built where the river now leaves the Loch at its north end-this joined up Loch Ness with a smaller loch at its northern end but at same time raised the level by about 10 feet flooding Inchnacardoch Bay where I moor at its south end.

As a result someone I know who has a small farm does lay claim to part of the bay which they bouy off-the rest who knows-basically no one is bothered.The water is controlled  by SEPA-Scottish Environmental Protection Agency and Scottish Water who supply drinking water in Scotland.

SEPA will barely allow those of us with septic tanks to breath but allow the famous and well known Urquhart Caste(Historic Scotland) to pump untreated sewerage from its visitors centre into the Loch which in our village we then drink(all be it purified a bit like London)

Know what you mean David-used to keep boat on River Wyre nr, Fleetwood Lancashire. There we moored on drying out home made jetties built out into tidal chanel.For years the salt marsh was just squatted on -then council began charging rent for salt marsh it owned-£200 a year 20 yrs. ago and by time I left 15 years ago it was over £500 and going up!

Dont get me going!

Phil

Wondering why Lead Keel should come into corrosion equation unless you've bonded all to it ?

It's one of the reasons that I have removed bonding cables on my boat and result is no electrolytic corrosion.

I wonder whether black-iron mooring gear would suit better as the zinc in galvanized gear may be liking the fresh-water, acidic environment too much ?

I have to say that I'm a terror if I have to pay for anything - I ask for invoices etc. to prove payments made..... I just don't trust people to be honest in these sort of incidents. Example : How much damage to engines covers is actually yours, were they scratched / dented before - you now picking up total tab for only part of it ? etc.

Anyway ... at least I hope you get signed letter stating Full and Final Payment and clear of any other claims ...

What actually happened was my boat ran aground on falling water levels in about 4 ft. and became stuck fast. At time wind direction was such for several weeks that it did not appear to be in harms way-then wind shifted thru 180 degrees and other boat swung unter my boats counter stern which had attached a Hasler Vane steerer-stainless metal work came up against outboard cowls and scratched deeply.

However real problem was owner who provided a detail estimate for damages down to the last pence!-too exact and honest for my liking!

As for the corroded chain I am only guuessing the cause-the origional mild steel chain went in 4 years ago with a rope mooring-3 years ago I replaced the rope with chain and as far as I can gather its since doing this that problem arose. There is an above water circuit up the chain into bronze bow fitting and down bronze keel rubbing strake-whether lead keel is involved only a guess.BUT failed end of chain by mooring block is less than 1/16 inch thick in places wheras end just below water is full thickness.Interesting as bottom here is a thick silty mud a bit like you get on tidal estuaries Having said this a large 1/2 pin shackle which attaches chain to swivel where it is open to water has lost about 25% of its thickness where contact has been with large eye on chain end.

Only other things that comes to mind is that chain was an old lifting chain so probably high tensile steel?!Also there may well be quite a high content of iron oxide in the silt-there are  small iron ore  deposits in area.

Also when I lifted parted chain out of water it was shiny bright at parted end.

Interested in any other views on this as I have never experienced such a radical problem when in salt water.As I said elsewhere it took about 10 weeks for process to strip a hot dipped galvanised chain of its zinc.

Phil

If anyone is interested in electrolytic corrosion attached is pic showing bottom and top of chain both ends under water for just over 3 years.

Phil

If you can get real Wrought Iron chain it would solve your problem!

but as you've no tide, I would think about using polypropylene and hanging some wieghts on it to make it behave.

They use it for all the moorings at Burnham on Crouch and it seems to work just fine!

Nigel - couldn't agree with you more re removing all electrical bonding - if you build a battery don't be surprised if you get a current - strange the way all the "experts" encourage this peculiar activity. For what its worth in Australia it is illegal to to do this and Hull Anodes are also banned except on steel boats - they have had so many sinkings they decided to stop it once and for all!