Hi Andrew

I also believe white diesel had less sulphur and I've also head some say that diesel fired heaters such as Eberspachers seem to work better with white.

Cheers and welcome to the forum

Chas

Who would disagree with Andrew Nelson's desire for the benefits of cleaner road diesel for private yachts and motorboats.  Why should we pay road diesel prices for marine grade diesel?

However, who is going to tell the tax-free entitiled commercial users that red dieso is no longer available at the local jetty or persuade the fuel retailer to install another strorage tank? How is the split of private boat dieso useage between propulsion engines and heaters (which can still use cheaper fuel) to be regulated? 

Yet again the powers-that-be haven't really thought this one through.

Red diesel has a subtle advantage in that if the glass bowl is hard to see then so is the meniscus between the 'white' diesel and the clear water.  It is very obvious when the red is against the water.  It is better to maintain the engine and the boat than to scrimp on the fuel itself.  A clean hull is obviously the place to start both from a fuel economy and a speed point of view.  Also the air cleaner should be scrupulously clean so that the ideal fuel air mix is being injected (look for black smoke when the engine has warmed up).  Also the injectors need to be maintained in accordance with the maker's recommendation.  They will go on for years long after they are worn or out of adjustment while feeding too much fuel to the engine.

 When motoring a long way vary the engine speed as continuous running at one speed especially under light load is not good for the engine.  Especially do not allow the engine to tick over to 'warm up'. 

As to the quality difference, road diesel in the UK now has a sulphur content of 10 parts per million maximum.  Heating grade gasoil (which is what the red "diesel" is) has sulphur content of 1000 parts per million, i.e. 100 times as great.  Other points of specification are also different, notably the cetane index (very approximately the equivalent of octane in petrol).

Be aware, in the context of asking for white road diesel quality at marina pumps, however, that the wholesale price of road diesel is signficantly higher than that of gasoil (or red "diesel") as the oil industry globally has not invested in sufficient suitable kit in refineries to keep up with the demand growth of (very low sulphur) diesel.  True road diesel therefore is likely to remain higher priced in the wholesale market than gasoil and this would be reflected in the price at the pump.  By the time the government has added its tax burden the difference may look relatively small but the fact remains that even if it were logistically feasible to supply white road diesel at marina pumps (separate tankage etc considerations) the price would be higher still than for current gasoil (red diesel).

Hi All

I have manner on long prices of diesels. First 4 stroke engine with piston valve.

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HI  rpm diesel : I tkink 50% less diesel , if all advantages making

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For the larger yacht, I have found that one item that has made a very big difference to fuel economy is the installation of a continuously variable pitch propeller.  Effectively this allows you to change gear according to wind and sea conditions.  So in light conditions the propeller is set to coarse pitch and the revs dropped and in heavy conditions the pitch is set to fine and revs increased.  Just like the difference between 3rd gear and overdrive.   It also means that whatever revs are used the engine may be fully loaded. 

An added benefit of this system is that a much larger diameter propeller with three blades, operating at lower revs and therefore very efficient, may be used since the additional drag whilst sailing can be eliminated by simply moving the blades to full feather, i.e. lining them up with the flow of the water.  This system makes for excellent fuel efficiency.  The system I am referring to is the Hundested variable pitch propeller - expensive to install - but well worth it in the long run.

Hi,

In the opening post of this discussion Roger Frith mentioned using used frying oil etc for fuel. This is something that should be discussed further. Bio-diesel is green and environmentally so much better than fossil fuels - in the event of a "spill" it degrades easily with little or no consequence to the ocean. My view is to team together, invest in a small refining unit, save tax, help the environment, reduce your overall running costs and continue to enjoy being out on the sea.

While I know nothing about the tax on home produced bio-fuel, I am well up to speed on production techniques etc.

Happy to chat

I'm totally flummoxed by all this.

I run a sailing school, teaching RYA practical courses. My boat has a diesel engine, heater, cooker and generator but only one fuel tank. Currently I spend around £1,500 per year on diesel.

Can anyone point me at an authoritative source that tells me:

If I have to pay duty on the fuel I use for my engine?

How I am supposed to account for the relative amounts of fuel I use for my engine, heater, cooker and generator?

Thanks,

John 

Recently I have been surprised by the large number of sailing craft that motor when under way - even when the wind is favourable.

Are they making hay while the sun shines? Are they just lazy : or are they charter boats hurrying back to base?

But, seriously, I do worry about the future. Owners (and charterers?) will start scrimping on fuel where here, in NW Highland, fuel is extraordinarily expensive. Tanks will not be topped up and condensation will form. This will lead to engine breakdown (and even damage) and additional call outs to Stornoway CG and our precious RNLI.

 As for keeping (on trust) the lower cost of heating - frankly, that is totally daft. What was the RYA thinking about when it supported that crazy idea ?

 As for myself, I have a beautiful Bengco charcoal heater. But charcoal purchased from my local hardware store is liable to VAT!! Should I be claiming a rebate ?

 In the interests of a Common Market approach, we should be seeking parity with European fuel costs.

Sailing boats are for sailing - not motoring - stop complaining!

Just have a look around the Solent and the South Coast at how many seriously expensive motor boats are on the water each summer - I can't imagine that increased fuel costs are of any real concern to someone in a boat worth hundred of thousands of pounds.

Could it not be argued that fuel taxes help pay for Coastguard services - and therefore we are getting something for our money?

Anyway - I run my boat on veg. oil. The cheapest I can find at the Cash & Carry, a couple of gallons of deisel, the rest of the tank veg. oil - as long as the engine has a mechanical fuel pump it will run for ever!

TRouble is that bio-diesel isn't eco friendly at all.

Its actually much worse on the environment than fossil based fuels.

The only exception is the stuff produced from sugar cane and possibly palm oil - you'll see the EU are already back-tracking on the requirements and the real environmentalist organisations that actually know what they are talking about, rather than the eco freaks that exist in the media and governments have already recognised how damaging to the total environment most bio fuel is!

The only real long term solution is going to be nuclear power and using that to produce hydrogen for portable power needs. The quicker the world wakes up to this fact and starts real investment in this the quicker we can do something to resolve the damage to the environment caused by fossil fuels (and the damage to the western economy of being reliant on OPEC and Russia!

If anyone is interested they should take a look at the latest generation nuclear power station that has recently been built in Finland - amazingly compact and efficient! Not at all like the Magnox stations ,whichwere weapoms grade plutonium producing factories actually! And its no surprise they were all shut down immediately after the Berlin Wall came down.

So Hydrogen power is how it will be for everyone in the future its just a question of when.

In response to Johns query yesterday-if you are a commercial user you just continue to run on red-and as I have said many a time on here you install your own supply tank and bulk buy-currently 70 pence  a litre though for 1000 litres.

Again to remind everyone anyone can buy and store red diesel without restriction as its used as heating fuel;in tractors;plant and machinery etc.etc.

Revving up cold engines -no no no-when a hot engine is switched off the hot and persay thinner oil bleeds away from the bearings into the sump-when you cold start you are invariably starting with no oil pressure and little oil on the bearings-warming up therefore is a good thing.Also gives you opportunity to determine from guages etc that engine is in good order-better to find this out before you leave harbour into teeth of a strong wind!.

To take an engine immediately to full load causes immediate high levels of wear.

Peter-Brogan Fuels;Scottish Fuels;Highland fuels etc.will all sell you bulk red.

As for sulphur believe it act as a good upper cylinder lubricant which is why its removal has necessitated other additives to white diesel.

In conclusion my Merc OM 636 has run for thirty one years on red diesel and still tuns in almost 100psi oil pressure.

Phil

Just to retiterate-current leglislation states that if you use diesel in a vehicle running on a public highway(tractors etc at work exempt)you must use road duty paid fuel-white diesel(veg. oil exempted).

For all other purposes including boats you can use duty (but not VAT)exempt diesel dyed red.

All that the new leglislation states is that leisure craft will no longer be able to legally use duty exempt diesel to power their engines.If your cooking and central heating on your boat takes 500 litres in a seperate tank no problem.

What you choose to use instead of duty exempt red diesel is up to you-there is no leglislation applicable to boats proscribing other fuels unlike vehicles on a public highway. It is illegal for example to use paraffin in a vehicle on a public highway but paraffin/keroscene with a suitable lubricating oil additive is quite legal on a boat.

If you choose to use road fuel(white diesel)then you will end up paying road fuel tax.

There was of course nothing to stop the government setting a seperate tax rate for leisure boat diesel!

As I have said many times before this leglislation is ill thought out and full of anomalies.and loopholes through which you could run a bus!

Phil

Change tax  are easy , change engine no ... change idea -i mpossible.

 Principle of operation half-rotate engine :