My RORC flare pack expired in December 2007 so I'm faced with forking out in the region of £200 for a handful of very expensive fireworks. But do I need them? Well my training during over fifty years association with the sea both as a professional and as an amateur sailor says yes I do, and no-one in their right mind would put to sea without them. But hang on a minute. I've just invested a stack of cash in an EPIRB with added GPS which, I'm told, will have the rescuers breathing down my neck within minutes of this technical wizardry being activated. So, apart from buying a few anti-collision white flares is there any need for EPIRB owners to continue to invest in red flares and orange smoke signals that have a very limited life, are only effective in clear weather conditions, and if anyone happens to be in your sailing patch, and can be awkward and risky to operate. Isn't an EPIRB the ultimate flare?
I can remember the same argument being made many years ago - "now we all have VHF, what's the point of flares?" Must admit I'd prefer not to have to a) pay for the things or b) carry them about. But in rescues in bad weather, SAR aircraft summoned by Epirb will still radio the yacht and ask it to launch a flare to pinpoint its position. And when Hooligan capsized last year it was only the flare pack that prevented further loss of life.
I think there is still a "belt and braces" argument for carrying flares as well as an Epirb. ISAF obviously thinks so too, because flares are still required for all categories of racing, from inshore to ocean.
Should the need ever arise (which I sincerely hope it will not), I'd say the odds were heavily in favour of the Epirb being the lifesaver. But it's still worth having the flares as a "long shot" back up, isn't it?
You're right Cathy, old habits are difficult to abandon and I can't think of putting to sea without a few reds stowed away. But hopefully the flare manufacturers might sense that EPIRBS could undermine their sales and start thinking about a more realistic price list.
I still can't understand why we have these discussions...
An EPIRB does one job and a flare does another - the only thing thaye have common is that they attract attention to you.
The accuracy of the EPIRB depends on which one you have - the old 121.5MHz, (no GPS built in and no vessel details) can be as bad as a 10NM radius; 406MHz without a GPS fix brings it down to up to 3 NM on the first detection sweep. You could also be within a couple of miles of some one who could help immediatetly but doesn't know. Also who (other than the SAR teams) has the necessary kit to home in on the beacon?
A red paraflare on a clear night could potentially be seen up to 30 miles away by anyone... a pinpoint red (depending on how high you hold it) possibly 6 - 10 miles.
As for costs - well we re back to rip off Britain again but don't forget for an accurate price comparison you need to factor in the EPIRB service costs for the 4 year life of the flare pack. Another line of thought is how much ould you spend on a good night out with a meal for the crew? Probably not far short of the cost of a new set of flares - over the 4 years - £60.00 a year - one good night on the town down south
The RNLI Sea Safety teams (probably on in your area) can organise demonstrations of flares including live flare firings. If you've never fired a flare - or seen one fired - this is a great opportunity.
I work with the Mandurah Volunteer Water Rescue Group on the West coast of Australia and we often perform flare demostrations for the public giving them instruction and allowing them the oportunity to do the actual operation of firing the different flares. We welcome the boating public to bring their date expired flares to us for these demos.
We have used flares up to 30 years old, from different manufacturers from all over the globe, that still work effectively! So it pays to keep your outdated flares on board provided they are in good condition. Perhaps up to 2 previous purchases. After all they do not take up alot of room and if one has the unfortunate need to use them, I'm certain that knowing you have a surplus would be very comforting in the terror of the moment, as shown by the experience related by a couple of sailors who have had to use their flares in dire emergencies; they said they had to strive to stop themselves from imediately setting of all their stock!
Brave man, Colin. I'm afraid the Health & Safety police over here would get terribly over-excited if we allowed time expired flares to be fired for demonstrations! And, of course, if there was an accident we wouldn't have a chance in court. Very different if it's an emergency.
The key words must be "provided they're in good condition". I guess that, like me, you've also come acroos out of date flares that are oozing nasty looking chemicals, with protective caps missing and rusted firing mechanisms.
If modern flares have a built in obsolescence that makes them as dangerous to handle after the expiry date as we are led to believe how can the manufacturers guarantee that their product will be stable before the expiry date?
Brian Wilson's tip about RNLI safety teams being able to organise a flare demonstration is a good one. It's a fair bet that a large percentage of those who go to sea in small boats, and even large ones, wouldn't have a clue how to fire a flare if faced with an emergency, especially at night. Many years ago when a large yacht I was delivering sheared an engine water skin fitting and started to sink in the Bay of Biscay we ended up in the sea when the liferaft failed to inflate. I fired flares using the most efficient method ever invented, a Very pistol. Whatever happened to them? Safety gadgets are constanly being improved - you don't hear many foghorns blaring these days - and I go back to my original point. Isn't an EPIRB the ultimate flare and should investing in one reduce the need to buy an expensive 'full' set of flares?
As commercial operators, we don't get the choice to go without - it is a requirement to have a proper flarepack. (I happen to think it's the right thing anyway.)
You've done your risk assessment - good, more people should think it through and reach sensible conclusions for themselves.
Incidentally, how do you manage to lift your powerful lamp a thousand feet into the air so that people can see it when you're over the horizon? Without parachute flares to do the job for you, that must be quite a feat. And when the helicopter arrives and asks if you can show smoke to help them ... do you set fire to the lamp?
I think I'll stick with my flares for a while. I can't find any evidence of any serious risk from in-date flares properly looked after and properly fired, and there are more than enough benefits for me.
'As commercial operators, we don't get the choice to go without'
Wrong Ian. Your duty is to carry out a risk assessment - and minimise risk. You may overrule unreasonable requirements.
I think you are being wasteful of your resources if you recommend firing pyros when the rescuers are 'over the horizon'. Far better to wait for 2-3M off.
No, I won't set fire to my lamp, (a silly comment) I will flash it across the bridge of a ship, or across a rescue helicopter.
Think about it Ian, isn't a directed powerful lamp much preferable to a pyro? And it doesn't carry the risk of blowing up in the hands of the user? Risking maiming for life! Have you assessed that?
Ed, I don't plan to make a protracted discussion out of this, so I won't respond again after this. It's simple enough just to say that I'm afraid you're wrong. Completely wrong. As a commercial operator, my only choice is to comply with regulations or not be a commercial operator. I am inspected every year by at least 2 different official bodies, and each inspection requires me to present my in-date flares. If I can't do that, my authority to operate will be removed.
Yes, I have a duty to carry out a risk assessment. I also have a duty to protect my passengers. Carrying the proper equipment is a pretty good way to do that, and the experts all agree that carrying pyros is a very important part of the safety inventory on a boat.
And I'm afraid that if pyros are our only option in calling for assistance (eg no power for VHF) and we're 20 miles offshore then it is exactly the opposite of "wasting resources" to do precisely what parachute flares are designed to do and that is to signal distress to an audience that cannot see hand held flares or a signal lamp, or anything else at sea level.
Is a powerful hand lamp preferable to a pyro? In some situations, yes it is. But it doesn't cover enough situations, and that is why we carry pyros as well
By the way, you won't make friends with your rescuers by flashing a powerful lamp at a helicopter, especially if light is fading or gone and they are wearing night vision equipment.
After an horrendous accident wasn't there a product recall recently?
OK if your regs require flares then you must carry them. 20M seems a lot. Is that what your manufacturer claims?
As for 'no power for vhf' problem, you might consider a portable vhf as back-up.
On the contrary, when the rescue services are searching in poor or no light, that's surely when to flash the lamp across? My seacheck RNLI guy had no problem with the method.
Yes, there was a serious incident with a hand flare misfire, product was recalled, and resulted in a redesign which is the version now on sale. That was an exceptional problem which was resolved quickly.
20-25 miles is quite reasonable for a parachute flare (compare with nominal ranges or dipping distance for lights if you want a comparison to check against). At that range, the reduced power of handheld VHF v. fixed set seriously limits the likelihood of getting contact - but it would be what I would try first before firing pyros, of course. You don't get a reassuring reply when you fire pyros like you do with a radio
Seriously Ed, I respect you for making your risk assessment - but in my opinion you're assessing the wrong risk. It's not the (very very small) risk of damaging your hand that's the big risk. It's the risk of losing your boat with all passengers and crew because you weren't able to summon help.
Flares have saved very many more lives than they have taken.
'No, I won't have explosives aboard, instead I have a powerful lamp.'
'OK, fair do's.'
Not sure that is the official RNLI line... from their website safety pages:
Flares Flares nowadays are used as a back up to your primary method of calling for help and come in a variety of types. - Red flares are used for night or poor visibility and come in either a large parachute rocket, visible up to 28 miles or, a handheld red flare visible for approx 5-7 miles for more coastal sailing. - Orange smoke flares are used in daytime and come in either a canister for offshore use or a handheld version for more coastal use. - White handheld flares are used for collision avoidance and should be kept separate from other flares to avoid confusion. - Personal flares are also available and are available as a double ended day and night flare, and also a pack of mini-rocket flares ideal for coastal use.
If you windsurf, kayak or depending on your craft and how far you go out to sea, the RNLI would recommend you carry at least the minimum requirement as stated in the RYA’s Boat Safety Handbook. If you windsurf, kayaks or go to sea in a small craft, then opt for the smaller personal flares and make sure you keep them in a waterproof container. Prices are dependant on the chandleries you buy them from. Some useful links to help are: [i]http://www.oceansafety.com/leisure/index.htm[/i] [i]http://www.pwss.com/news/news_details.asp?ID=122&Page=1[/i]
28M!! Hell, that is some distance. Thank you Wolfie. I'm duly corrected.
I responded to flares once, it was in the night, I was half-way across Start Bay. I altered course and worried how I might cope with say a sinking boat and crew in the water. I drew alongside to find they were firing them for amusement! I was met with silence, not even an apology! B.....ds!
I guess the SeaCheckers are reasonable people. They cannot make leisure yotties carry explosives, and if the skipper has thought about alternatives then yes, it's fair-do's.
Let's not get too pedantic, but if we're talking about explosives onboard - there are far more accidents due to fuel and gas leaks than there are with flares. I don't know any yachties who don't have explosives of some sort on board.
We've rather hi-jacked this thread. How about letting people get back to Bob's original and rathger interesting question about EPIRB or Pyros.
The truth is that until you know where you are going to have your crisis, you don't know what will be most useful to you! In the middle of a deserted ocean, an Epirb is probably the only thing that will get you help. In busy waters, the powerful light has much to recommend it. But flares have a longer range than the powerful light, and even in remote waters may get you help from a vessel in the immediate vicinity (up to 28 miles away!) a darn sight quicker than the Epirb, which has to alert a distant MRCC station, which then has to scramble lifeboats, helicopters etc. If you are already in the water, another yacht or ship close by summoned by a flare will be much more helpful.
So if you are only sailing in coastal waters, flares (and a big light, and fixed and handheld VHFs) will be more useful than an Epirb. But if you are crossing empty oceans, an Epirb is your best hope (and a liferaft, and lifejackets complete with lights, sprayhoods, PLBs and all the rest). It's all a shocking lot of money to spend, in the confident belief that you will never have to use it, which is why so many people are resentful of the amount of money they are expected to spend on safety kit. But if you do over need any of it, it will seem a good bargain.
At £500 plus to buy, plus an battery change and service every five years, an Epirb costs roughly the same as keeping an in-date RORC flare pack on the boat. Add depreciation and servicing on liferaft, lifejackets and all the rest, the cost of safety kit probably adds up to £500 plus a year for the average yacht. But is that an unreasonable life insurance premium for say six people voluntarily engaging in a moderately risky activity?
It has already been said by another that EPIRB brings the rescuers within range of you, but the flare pinpoints your location.
The old matter of time expired flares. While at sea - we used to fire off old flares as demo (first of all making general VHF call out that it was demo - just in case ! ) ... and ALL old flares worked. I cannot remember any mis-fires or failures.
My boat has time expired flares as well as recent. Even if only 1 works - that's 1 more than the pack that may just save life.
I am considering adding to my flare inventory also. The way I pass on to others to lessen the financial impact - is to exchange a flare a month. OK the total spend may be more, but you spread the cost over a period, you also space out the renewals so that you continue budgeting. If you are particularly well off one month - then go for 2 !!
Has anyone ever heard of out of date flares self igniting, this is my biggest worry from carrying old flares especially if there are many stored together. The results could be catastrophic.
